Hi List,
in an adjacent thread, Alex made a statement that low-bandwidth internet connections are a thing of the past, and thus NX is basically obsolete.
I have personal experience to share which proves him wrong.
The following internet speeds were recorded in a suburb of a metropolitan area with more than 185 000 residents. And yes, I have the screenshots to prove it, I just don't want to burden the list with them.
Residential DSL: Downstream: 5.435 MBit/s max, 5.233 MBit/s average Upstream: 0.465 MBit/s max, 0.427 MBit/s average Ping latency: 23.00 ms min, 28.94 ms average
Residential Cable: Downstream: 35.14 MBit/s max, 28.06 MBit/s average Upstream: 2625 MBit/s max, 2.426 MBit/s average Ping latency: 32.00 ms min, 39,38 ms average (iow, higher throughput than DSL, but higher latency) -> This will, however, get worse, as Cable is a shared medium and people in the area are getting fed up with their DSL speeds and are switching over to Cable as their contracts expire.
LTE, 1st of 2 providers: 3 out of 5 bars Downstream: 4.715 MBit/s max, 2.029 MBit/s average Upstream: 3.923 MBit/s max, 3.706 MBit/s average Ping latency: 48.00 ms min, 60.50 ms average
LTE, 2nd of 2 providers: 2 out of 5 bars Downstream: 0.325 MBit/s max, 0.214 MBit/s average Upstream: 0.325 MBit/s max, 0.225 MBit/s average Ping latency: 64.00 ms min, 79.25 ms average
Now step outside and move another 800 meters towards the city limits, and LTE provider 1 drops to UMTS/EDGE (and GSM on a bad day), while LTE provider 2 actually goes up to 3-4 bars and gets 3-7 MBit/s peak rates - but they are short peaks/bursts in an otherwise very mediocre reception. Nothing you want to rely on.
Again, this isn't Mooville, West Virgina, with 100 inhabitants and 75 of them cattle, but a larger city in the self-proclaimed high-tech nation Germany.
Even Finnish rural areas have better UMTS and LTE coverage than we in Germany have, at the outskirts of our cities. And no, I'm not making this up, I've been to such areas in Finland in the last two years, and I know what the reception there was like.
So NX will be here for quite some time, there is a need for it, and for less fancy, but lightweight desktops that work well with it.
-Stefan
-- BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
Downstream: 35.14 MBit/s max, 28.06 MBit/s average Upstream: 2625 MBit/s max, 2.426 MBit/s average This one is, of course, missing the decimal. 2.625. Not 2625. Though
Am 07.05.20 um 20:28 schrieb Stefan Baur: that would be lovely.
-- BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
Hmm... Just tested connection from my home (city with ~300 000 people), Ukraine:
- Cable connection, the cheapest plan I can get here: Downstream: 24.72 Mbps Upstream: 24.27 Mbps Ping: 6 ms Btw, I can easily get symmetrical 90 Mbps if I need that - just need to switch plan.
- LTE (3 bars): Downstream: 10.96 Mbps Upstream: 11.89 Mbps Ping: 36 ms
DSL gives lower speeds of course, due to old cables most of which are >30 years old. But it's not used much nowadays.
Tested with speedtest.net
Trying again to send to list. I kind of wish default reply was reply to list, I end up sending just to one user...
And to talk about the US - it varies wildly. We're in the southerntier / fingerlakes in NY and we can see anything from a fiber connection (that still tops out at 250/25 for some insane reason) to LTE at around 8Mbits/.75mbit to Cable that's all cable can be to DSL that's basically dial up because Frontier is bankrupt and never upgraded anything since 2004 to satellite that is who knows what, to people who have no internet options.
The idea that everyone has or is likely to have 25mbit symmetrical Internet or better isn't true in "first world nations" forget about generally anywhere in the world. If we didn't care about limited network performance, I can't see why everyone wouldn't just use VNC... The performance is just not there with "just stream video of the screen" technologies.
-- James Pulver CLASSE Computer Group Cornell University
From: x2go-user <x2go-user-bounces@lists.x2go.org> on behalf of Stefan Baur <X2Go-ML-1@baur-itcs.de> Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 2:36 PM To: x2go-user@lists.x2go.org Subject: Re: [X2Go-User] Semi-Offtopic: The sorry state of Landline and Mobile Internet in Germany
Downstream: 35.14 MBit/s max, 28.06 MBit/s average Upstream: 2625 MBit/s max, 2.426 MBit/s average This one is, of course, missing the decimal. 2.625. Not 2625. Though
Am 07.05.20 um 20:28 schrieb Stefan Baur: that would be lovely.
-- BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
x2go-user mailing list x2go-user@lists.x2go.org https://lists.x2go.org/listinfo/x2go-user
Also all the available bandwidth will be soaked up by Netflix, Prime, Disney+, ...
Uli
On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 5:05 PM James M. Pulver <jmp242@cornell.edu> wrote:
Trying again to send to list. I kind of wish default reply was reply to list, I end up sending just to one user...
And to talk about the US - it varies wildly. We're in the southerntier / fingerlakes in NY and we can see anything from a fiber connection (that still tops out at 250/25 for some insane reason) to LTE at around 8Mbits/.75mbit to Cable that's all cable can be to DSL that's basically dial up because Frontier is bankrupt and never upgraded anything since 2004 to satellite that is who knows what, to people who have no internet options.
The idea that everyone has or is likely to have 25mbit symmetrical Internet or better isn't true in "first world nations" forget about generally anywhere in the world. If we didn't care about limited network performance, I can't see why everyone wouldn't just use VNC... The performance is just not there with "just stream video of the screen" technologies.
-- James Pulver CLASSE Computer Group Cornell University
From: x2go-user <x2go-user-bounces@lists.x2go.org> on behalf of Stefan Baur <X2Go-ML-1@baur-itcs.de> Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2020 2:36 PM To: x2go-user@lists.x2go.org Subject: Re: [X2Go-User] Semi-Offtopic: The sorry state of Landline and Mobile Internet in Germany
Downstream: 35.14 MBit/s max, 28.06 MBit/s average Upstream: 2625 MBit/s max, 2.426 MBit/s average This one is, of course, missing the decimal. 2.625. Not 2625. Though
Am 07.05.20 um 20:28 schrieb Stefan Baur: that would be lovely.
-- BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
x2go-user mailing list x2go-user@lists.x2go.org https://lists.x2go.org/listinfo/x2go-user
x2go-user mailing list x2go-user@lists.x2go.org https://lists.x2go.org/listinfo/x2go-user
The idea that everyone has or is likely to have 25mbit symmetrical Internet or better isn't true in "first world nations" forget about generally anywhere in the world. If we didn't care about limited network performance, I can't see why everyone wouldn't just use VNC... The performance is just not there with "just stream video of the screen" technologies.
Well, I can agree with that. But there is one problem: mainstream doesn't care. Websites are bloated, pictures, videos everywhere, tons of JS etc. Regarding X2Go - X11 is being obsolete, Wayland is not developed with low-bandwidth remote access in mind, modern GUI toolkits make heavy use of bitmaps etc. All that leaves not so much choice - transfer bitmaps, bitmaps and more bitmaps. Compress them, cache, etc, but use bitmaps.
// Offtopic: as we joke - Ukraine has good and very cheap internet just because there is no Ministry of Internet here :)
Am 8. Mai 2020 15:23:38 GMT-05:00 schrieb "Михайло Падалка" <misha.cn.ua@gmail.com>:
The idea that everyone has or is likely to have 25mbit symmetrical Internet or better isn't true in "first world nations" forget about generally anywhere in the world. If we didn't care about limited
network
performance, I can't see why everyone wouldn't just use VNC... The performance is just not there with "just stream video of the screen" technologies.
Well, I can agree with that. But there is one problem: mainstream doesn't care. Websites are bloated, pictures, videos everywhere, tons of JS etc. Regarding X2Go - X11 is being obsolete, Wayland is not developed with low-bandwidth remote access in mind, modern GUI toolkits make heavy use of bitmaps etc. All that leaves not so much choice - transfer bitmaps, bitmaps and more bitmaps. Compress them, cache, etc, but use bitmaps.
// Offtopic: as we joke - Ukraine has good and very cheap internet just because there is no Ministry of Internet here :) I heard that Saakashvili is going to take this position.
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Gerät mit K-9 Mail gesendet.
Am 08.05.20 um 17:04 schrieb James M. Pulver:
Trying again to send to list. I kind of wish default reply was reply to list, I end up sending just to one user...
This list is following the rules set out in RFC 2369, so it sets a List-ID header, which, in sane mail clients, causes a "Reply to List" option to become available when replying. This RFC is from 1998, so it's not like it has just been introduced yesterday and mail client software coders didn't have enough time to support this feature.
Mangling the Reply-To header (which may have been set intentionally by the original sender) with list software is bad form.
E.g. if you want to post to the list, but want to set the Reply-To to another list or to your E-Mail address, so replies don't hit the list, this would be overwritten, pointing at the list again.
This is confusing both for a sender that doesn't expect it, and for recipients that expect their reply to reach your inbox instead of the list when intentionally selecting "reply" instead of "reply to list".
We're using manually set Reply-To headers as a replacement for "Follow-Up-To" (a header only available on newsgroups), when crossposting announcements across multiple X2Go lists, but wish to channel the ensuing discussion to only one of the lists. So having the list server set to override this would be bad.
And I think I also used it with a Reply-To set to my personal inbox for the X2Go: The Gathering registration E-Mails. At least it makes sense for these - people probably don't want to post their personal details to the list when they want to sign up for the event.
TL;DR: Please complain to the manufacturer of your E-Mail client, or switch to a different E-Mail client, if it can't handle list replies the way it should.
-Stefan
-- BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
I wish I didn't have to use OWA at work. Again it screws me up. I have noticed that Thunderbird will nicely say "reply to list", but that's getting harder to use as Microsoft keeps trying to kill IMAP.
-- James Pulver CLASSE Computer Group Cornell University
From: x2go-user <x2go-user-bounces@lists.x2go.org> on behalf of Stefan Baur <X2Go-ML-1@baur-itcs.de> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 2:53 PM To: x2go-user@lists.x2go.org Subject: [X2Go-User] META: Replying to List (was: Re: Semi-Offtopic: The sorry state of Landline and Mobile Internet in Germany)
Am 08.05.20 um 17:04 schrieb James M. Pulver:
Trying again to send to list. I kind of wish default reply was reply to list, I end up sending just to one user...
This list is following the rules set out in RFC 2369, so it sets a List-ID header, which, in sane mail clients, causes a "Reply to List" option to become available when replying. This RFC is from 1998, so it's not like it has just been introduced yesterday and mail client software coders didn't have enough time to support this feature.
Mangling the Reply-To header (which may have been set intentionally by the original sender) with list software is bad form.
E.g. if you want to post to the list, but want to set the Reply-To to another list or to your E-Mail address, so replies don't hit the list, this would be overwritten, pointing at the list again.
This is confusing both for a sender that doesn't expect it, and for recipients that expect their reply to reach your inbox instead of the list when intentionally selecting "reply" instead of "reply to list".
We're using manually set Reply-To headers as a replacement for "Follow-Up-To" (a header only available on newsgroups), when crossposting announcements across multiple X2Go lists, but wish to channel the ensuing discussion to only one of the lists. So having the list server set to override this would be bad.
And I think I also used it with a Reply-To set to my personal inbox for the X2Go: The Gathering registration E-Mails. At least it makes sense for these - people probably don't want to post their personal details to the list when they want to sign up for the event.
TL;DR: Please complain to the manufacturer of your E-Mail client, or switch to a different E-Mail client, if it can't handle list replies the way it should.
-Stefan
-- BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
x2go-user mailing list x2go-user@lists.x2go.org https://lists.x2go.org/listinfo/x2go-user
Hello,
Stefan Baur wrote:
in an adjacent thread, Alex made a statement that low-bandwidth internet connections are a thing of the past, and thus NX is basically obsolete.
I have personal experience to share which proves him wrong.
Here is mine : France 2020, rural area (village of less than 200 humans (but many more sheep)).
ADSL is below 2 Mbps downstream, 0.5 Mbps upstream.
Fibre-to-the-home was planned for 2017 but several times postponed. Now promised for 2021.
Currently I am using 4G/LTE and switching between 2 providers:
- first provider speeds vary from 20 Mbps up and downstream at 5 am to less than 1 Mbps after 20:00.
- second provider offers a constant 1 Mbps service, I use it as fallback when wife and kids watch Youtube.
Some of my users live nearby, so I know they do not get better speeds.
During the COVID 19 lockdown, many started working from home.
From a rescue tool, X2GoClient became their most important piece of software.
I advised them to download and install their usual tools onto their home computers (Thunderbird, Firefox and LibreOffice), then setup X2GoClient shared folders so they could work efficiently.
By the way, all these free software tools work on MacOSX, Windows and Gnu/Linux, which allowed all users to work from home.
I agree with Stephan:
So NX will be here for quite some time, there is a need for it, and for less fancy, but lightweight desktops that work well with it.
We use XFCE4 and users like it.
-- Sébastien
We also use XFCE4 and users seem to like it.
-- James Pulver CLASSE Computer Group Cornell University
From: x2go-user <x2go-user-bounces@lists.x2go.org> on behalf of Sébastien Ducoulombier <seb@ldd.fr> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2020 7:29 AM To: x2go-user@lists.x2go.org Subject: Re: [X2Go-User] Semi-Offtopic: The sorry state of Landline and Mobile Internet in Germany
Hello,
Stefan Baur wrote:
in an adjacent thread, Alex made a statement that low-bandwidth internet connections are a thing of the past, and thus NX is basically obsolete.
I have personal experience to share which proves him wrong.
Here is mine : France 2020, rural area (village of less than 200 humans (but many more sheep)).
ADSL is below 2 Mbps downstream, 0.5 Mbps upstream.
Fibre-to-the-home was planned for 2017 but several times postponed. Now promised for 2021.
Currently I am using 4G/LTE and switching between 2 providers:
- first provider speeds vary from 20 Mbps up and downstream at 5 am to less than 1 Mbps after 20:00.
- second provider offers a constant 1 Mbps service, I use it as fallback when wife and kids watch Youtube.
Some of my users live nearby, so I know they do not get better speeds.
During the COVID 19 lockdown, many started working from home.
From a rescue tool, X2GoClient became their most important piece of software.
I advised them to download and install their usual tools onto their home computers (Thunderbird, Firefox and LibreOffice), then setup X2GoClient shared folders so they could work efficiently.
By the way, all these free software tools work on MacOSX, Windows and Gnu/Linux, which allowed all users to work from home.
I agree with Stephan:
So NX will be here for quite some time, there is a need for it, and for less fancy, but lightweight desktops that work well with it.
We use XFCE4 and users like it.
-- Sébastien
x2go-user mailing list x2go-user@lists.x2go.org https://lists.x2go.org/listinfo/x2go-user
Well, I think you missed a point. First of all I never told, that we should immediately get rid of NX and forget about everyone who has a slow connection. I'm just saying that the situation with Internet is improving and will improve in the future. But even now, the examples that you are bringing here, it's just a minority of all users. We are concentrating now on this cases and forgetting about the majority of the users, for who X2Go is becoming unattractive because at the moment it's only working well with obsolete software. You all talking here about only one use case and forgetting that X2Go is also widely used as TC system and to access a desktops in LAN. And what about all users who have a good Internet connections? For them the fact that they can't use some of modern software is fatal. They going away from X2Go and will never come back. X2Go is attractive not only because it works good with legacy apps on slow nets. In this case they just would use FreeNX. It's not only about connection protocol. It's also about usability of X2Go client and server and all things around.
@Stefan: as project coordinator you are first of all people should think about where are we going with X2Go and what happens in the future. I can assure you, if we are only concentrating on NX, in several years X2Go will be dead. And not just we'll have less cases with slow connections. Also, we will have less legacy application, which are working better with NX. With "modern" application, which are not using X11 features, NX sucks. Just take as example the firefox with disabled xrender and look how much better it works with x2gokdrive compared to NX on slow connections.
Alex
Am 09.05.20 um 06:29 schrieb Sébastien Ducoulombier:
Hello,
Stefan Baur wrote:
in an adjacent thread, Alex made a statement that low-bandwidth internet connections are a thing of the past, and thus NX is basically obsolete.
I have personal experience to share which proves him wrong.
Here is mine : France 2020, rural area (village of less than 200 humans (but many more sheep)).
ADSL is below 2 Mbps downstream, 0.5 Mbps upstream.
Fibre-to-the-home was planned for 2017 but several times postponed. Now promised for 2021.
Currently I am using 4G/LTE and switching between 2 providers:
- first provider speeds vary from 20 Mbps up and downstream at 5 am to less than 1 Mbps after 20:00.
- second provider offers a constant 1 Mbps service, I use it as fallback when wife and kids watch Youtube.
Some of my users live nearby, so I know they do not get better speeds.
During the COVID 19 lockdown, many started working from home.
From a rescue tool, X2GoClient became their most important piece of software.
I advised them to download and install their usual tools onto their home computers (Thunderbird, Firefox and LibreOffice), then setup X2GoClient shared folders so they could work efficiently.
By the way, all these free software tools work on MacOSX, Windows and Gnu/Linux, which allowed all users to work from home.
I agree with Stephan:
So NX will be here for quite some time, there is a need for it, and for less fancy, but lightweight desktops that work well with it.
We use XFCE4 and users like it.
--
Oleksandr Shneyder | Email: o.shneyder@phoca-gmbh.de phoca GmbH | Tel. : 0911 - 14870374 0 Schleiermacherstr. 2 | Fax. : 0911 - 14870374 9 D-90491 Nürnberg | Mobil: 0163 - 49 64 461
Geschäftsführung: Dipl.-Inf. Oleksandr Shneyder
Amtsgericht München | http://www.phoca-gmbh.de HRB 196 658 | http://www.x2go.org USt-IdNr.: DE281977973
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James M. Pulver -
Oleksandr Shneyder -
Stefan Baur -
Sébastien Ducoulombier -
Ulrich Sibiller -
Михайло Падалка