I just wan't to be fair comment the things that going on here.
Dear project,
whats going on here is business strategy. Somebody wants to earn money or wants to have good reputation and needs influence on the tool he is using - at best not influence but control. This is needed to proof customers or what ever you address that you are the only competence. It is always esier to show the world failures of people, but in this way it was showing failures AND developing something better. I too wanted to get control here and I've began to work on my own fork. And I've caused trouble to existing project.
I bet this project is dead even if you don't know now. The failures of the project was: No awareness of trademarks, no awareness of fast reacting and wrong marketing. If you want to keep control you should develop such things as company - not as project.
To give you a last chance - you can keep your little domain. It will be wanted soon by sombody else - so make your homework... ...this time...
Congratulations to the new way - I bet with contributions a fork will grow faster and better.
Here my thoughts about how this would be better:
- Don't spend time on own clients - integrate your work into existing clients like krd, tsclient, vinagre,...
- Have every functionality as a module so that somebody can use SMB and others SSHFS or WEBDAV
- As Plugin you should only make a google native client project. This is much better than every Plugin and Googles Browser even runs on phones - and you don't even need to compile it especially. I bet this can be soon done with python too.
- Face the future - there will only be google and ubuntu - javacript and python.
Your work is to be compared with spice and nx4!!!
so long...
Hey Eli,
they will have to change the name/domain anyway! The brand/name "x2go" is registered with DPMA (the German patent and trademark registry institution) and is owned by "sino Aktiengesellschaft" in Düsseldorf. Well, and they would have to prove that they have been using the "x2go" term before those guys - and they'd have to do that before the opposition period has expired. As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
The failure of this project is that these guys do not think about the consequences before they act and that they ignore efforts of people willing to contribute unless they force them to justice court.
GIT was the "next thing to do" that was promised by mighty Heinz on July 15th - and I bet it won't be available before I have forked the server side as well!
Instead of pushing the project into an open development to join the forces (that's the only way to have success if you aren't a big profitable company), they focus on QtBrowserPlugin?
I heard NONE of the community members ever saying they don't like the plugin as it is and it would be important to switch to QtBrowserPlugin. Nice that you do it, but why don't u first do the important things that are really needed?
JÖrg
Am Donnerstag, den 23.09.2010, 11:50 +0000 schrieb Eli K.:
I just wan't to be fair comment the things that going on here.
Dear project,
whats going on here is business strategy. Somebody wants to earn money or wants to have good reputation and needs influence on the tool he is using - at best not influence but control. This is needed to proof customers or what ever you address that you are the only competence. It is always esier to show the world failures of people, but in this way it was showing failures AND developing something better. I too wanted to get control here and I've began to work on my own fork. And I've caused trouble to existing project.
I bet this project is dead even if you don't know now. The failures of the project was: No awareness of trademarks, no awareness of fast reacting and wrong marketing. If you want to keep control you should develop such things as company - not as project.
To give you a last chance - you can keep your little domain. It will be wanted soon by sombody else - so make your homework... ...this time...
Congratulations to the new way - I bet with contributions a fork will grow faster and better.
Here my thoughts about how this would be better:
- Don't spend time on own clients - integrate your work into existing clients like krd, tsclient, vinagre,...
- Have every functionality as a module so that somebody can use SMB and others SSHFS or WEBDAV
- As Plugin you should only make a google native client project. This is much better than every Plugin and Googles Browser even runs on phones - and you don't even need to compile it especially. I bet this can be soon done with python too.
- Face the future - there will only be google and ubuntu - javacript and python.
Your work is to be compared with spice and nx4!!!
so long...
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
On 09/23/2010 09:37 AM, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
Hey Eli,
they will have to change the name/domain anyway! The brand/name "x2go" is registered with DPMA (the German patent and trademark registry institution) and is owned by "sino Aktiengesellschaft" in Düsseldorf. Well, and they would have to prove that they have been using the "x2go" term before those guys - and they'd have to do that before the opposition period has expired. As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
There are individuals and companies that are squatting both domain names and trademarks. The question would be, what date was the mark "x2go" registered and what is the scope of the registration. In other words you can have two entities that register the same mark but for use in different markets. For example, Ajax is a cleanser, Ajax is also a web technology. And even if it is the same market, it comes down to who was the first to use the mark "x2go" in a commercial transaction.
Regards, Gerry
Gerry,
the x2go trademark is registered with DPMA in the areas computer, software, and financial services. If it was registered as "food" or "washing powder", it would be allright. But this will definitely cause them lots of trouble after the opposition period has expired.
Jörg
Am Donnerstag, den 23.09.2010, 11:21 -0400 schrieb Gerry Reno:
On 09/23/2010 09:37 AM, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
Hey Eli,
they will have to change the name/domain anyway! The brand/name "x2go" is registered with DPMA (the German patent and trademark registry institution) and is owned by "sino Aktiengesellschaft" in Düsseldorf. Well, and they would have to prove that they have been using the "x2go" term before those guys - and they'd have to do that before the opposition period has expired. As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
There are individuals and companies that are squatting both domain names and trademarks. The question would be, what date was the mark "x2go" registered and what is the scope of the registration. In other words you can have two entities that register the same mark but for use in different markets. For example, Ajax is a cleanser, Ajax is also a web technology. And even if it is the same market, it comes down to who was the first to use the mark "x2go" in a commercial transaction.
Regards, Gerry
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
It sounds like they have already contacted an attorney about this matter. I would recommend that they have their attorney let the registrant know that they intend to challenge their mark. Often times this will result in some agreement between the parties without getting into a protracted legal battle which is usually negative for both sides. I would try the carrot first, before I tried the stick.
Regards, Gerry
On 09/23/2010 03:47 PM, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
Gerry,
the x2go trademark is registered with DPMA in the areas computer, software, and financial services. If it was registered as "food" or "washing powder", it would be allright. But this will definitely cause them lots of trouble after the opposition period has expired.
Jörg
Am Donnerstag, den 23.09.2010, 11:21 -0400 schrieb Gerry Reno:
On 09/23/2010 09:37 AM, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
Hey Eli,
they will have to change the name/domain anyway! The brand/name "x2go" is registered with DPMA (the German patent and trademark registry institution) and is owned by "sino Aktiengesellschaft" in Düsseldorf. Well, and they would have to prove that they have been using the "x2go" term before those guys - and they'd have to do that before the opposition period has expired. As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
There are individuals and companies that are squatting both domain names and trademarks. The question would be, what date was the mark "x2go" registered and what is the scope of the registration. In other words you can have two entities that register the same mark but for use in different markets. For example, Ajax is a cleanser, Ajax is also a web technology. And even if it is the same market, it comes down to who was the first to use the mark "x2go" in a commercial transaction.
Regards, Gerry
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
The failure of this project is that these guys do not think about the
Jörg:
Let me be direct. I understand it -- you don't like the project management choices. You would do it differently. You _are_ doing it differently for your customers
Please take content of this type somewhere else, as your commercial interest makes your 'rants' suspiciously tainted to me
It is simply inappropriate and rude to eat at a free restaurant in the honored guest private dining room, and then loudly complain that the portions were too small, and did not taste good
Take your complaints outside
-- Russ herrold
On Thu, 2010-09-23 at 11:46 -0400, R P Herrold wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
The failure of this project is that these guys do not think about the
Jörg:
Let me be direct. I understand it -- you don't like the project management choices. You would do it differently. You _are_ doing it differently for your customers
Please take content of this type somewhere else, as your commercial interest makes your 'rants' suspiciously tainted to me
It is simply inappropriate and rude to eat at a free restaurant in the honored guest private dining room, and then loudly complain that the portions were too small, and did not taste good
Take your complaints outside
-- Russ herrold
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Thank you, Russ. For those who do not know, Russ has more experience working on large open source projects than most of us combined. Reference http://planet.centos.org/
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
On Thu, 2010-09-23 at 11:46 -0400, R P Herrold wrote:
It is simply inappropriate and rude to eat at a free restaurant in the honored guest private dining room, and then loudly complain that the portions were too small, and did not taste good
Thank you, Russ. For those who do not know, Russ has more experience working on large open source projects than most of us combined.
Reference http://planet.centos.org/
chuckle -- decloaked -- yeah -- I have fought these fights before a few times. But I try to learn, and to be a good citizen in the FOSS community every day
I've explored getting a packaging of x2go that I like to be an adjunct to Fedora (CentOS' feeder, via RHEL), and also for a commercial product we've been working on for the last few years. Open Source requires a patient and fostering touch, and not the bludgeon in the first instance
- Russ herrold
Russ,
I have been discussing with Heinz and Alex for the last two months, because I want to CONTRIBUTE for FREE to THIS project! Is that a very commerical interest? To help them for free? I want to get my hands dirty - NOW! I want to make x2go the best terminal server ever. Dont you understand it? I don't want to FORK it and do all the work again just because they don't let me contribute! It's more like eating in a free restaurant and wanting to give something back to make it the best restaurant in the world. And all you get is that your efforts are ignored!
I don't want to reinvent the wheel. Because my interest to cooperate and join all the forces is of a commercial intention!
My "client" is the local state here with about 4000 schools - sure, schools are very commercial! I am lucky if I get a few bucks from them, but most of my work is voluntary!
Tell me what you would do if you want to push a great idea and they don't let you - even though they promised it already two months ago!
Jörg
Am Donnerstag, den 23.09.2010, 12:44 -0400 schrieb R P Herrold:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
On Thu, 2010-09-23 at 11:46 -0400, R P Herrold wrote:
It is simply inappropriate and rude to eat at a free restaurant in the honored guest private dining room, and then loudly complain that the portions were too small, and did not taste good
Thank you, Russ. For those who do not know, Russ has more experience working on large open source projects than most of us combined.
Reference http://planet.centos.org/
chuckle -- decloaked -- yeah -- I have fought these fights before a few times. But I try to learn, and to be a good citizen in the FOSS community every day
I've explored getting a packaging of x2go that I like to be an adjunct to Fedora (CentOS' feeder, via RHEL), and also for a commercial product we've been working on for the last few years. Open Source requires a patient and fostering touch, and not the bludgeon in the first instance
- Russ herrold
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Am Donnerstag, den 23.09.2010, 12:25 -0400 schrieb John A. Sullivan III:
On Thu, 2010-09-23 at 11:46 -0400, R P Herrold wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
The failure of this project is that these guys do not think about the
Jörg:
Let me be direct. I understand it -- you don't like the project management choices. You would do it differently. You _are_ doing it differently for your customers
Please take content of this type somewhere else, as your commercial interest makes your 'rants' suspiciously tainted to me
It is simply inappropriate and rude to eat at a free restaurant in the honored guest private dining room, and then loudly complain that the portions were too small, and did not taste good
Take your complaints outside
Thank you, Russ. For those who do not know, Russ has more experience working on large open source projects than most of us combined. Reference http://planet.centos.org/
Although I do not agree with Jörg getting personal I, like others, can understand the frustration of Jörg and probably his last message with the legal threats (thread GPL violations) are his desperate effort to change that.
But Russ misses the point in my opinion. Apart from that commercial interests are totally valid and a lot of people have already argued that Jörg’s point of view is legally totally correct, it is not clear for me why Heinz and Oleksandr do not except any help. They stated several times, that they are short in time. But they did not accept any help offer by Jörg for example.
In my opinion it is unfair and misleading to the community, because people do plan their road map according to those statements. I do not know the reason. But if Heinz and Oleksandr are afraid that they could loose control over the project or do not want to share the burden, they should state it clearly and people can draw their own conclusions from their on.
I definitely hope that this thread is not going to be any longer until Heinz is back from vacation. I do thank Heinz and Oleksandr for their work and support and I do hope that the X2go “community” will settle this argument and will work together in the future as stated in several messages to the list.
Heinz and Oleksandr, if you need help with those legal issues I guess there are a lot of people out here who can give you advise and support you. Just publish that letter from that other company and go open with that.
Thanks,
Paul
Hey Paul,
thank you for your comment. That was a great statement! Actually the first one where I didn't feel like I am the idiot.
I have a mail of Heinz here saying that VCS (read only) access is the "next thing" - that's what he promised on July 15th. Taking that statement seriously, I told my clients and coworkers: I have talked to the x2go project leader and we will have GIT access very soon, you should definitely have some money ready to fund some work on x2go that is either done by me or by Heinz and Alex themselves.
Can you understand that it is totally embarassing for me? Heinz could have said at this time: No, Jörg, we won't accept contributions in the new feature - fork it, make something own, find another project.
I am now the complete idiot: My client wants to roll out a testing environment / pilot project if it work out to provide a set of educational and standard software to all schools in the state through x2go. Nothing has been done and I am the stupid one who is now blamed because I trusted Heinz' word!
In my opinion, a promise should only be given, if you can and want to hold it. How can collaboration work, if you don't trust people?
I cannot understand that so many people on this list say: Go away, they are doing this in their spare time, they a) do not need to hold their promises (setting up VCS takes 2 minutes, so not really a BIG promise that's hard to fullfill) and b) can simply ignore GPL unless they publish the code at some time when they are not so busy.
You are all right and it's great that Alex and Heinz have done a lot of work for us - but that doesn't mean they are allowed to bring others in trouble and waste their time because of false promises! And that does not mean that it is okay to wait until others do all the work again because they are frustrated as hell by not being taken seriously!
Play with open cards please!
Thanks,
JÖrg
Am Donnerstag, den 23.09.2010, 18:56 +0200 schrieb Paul Menzel:
Am Donnerstag, den 23.09.2010, 12:25 -0400 schrieb John A. Sullivan III:
On Thu, 2010-09-23 at 11:46 -0400, R P Herrold wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
As their responsiveness is very slow, they'll either miss the deadline or they don't want to bother a lawyer again to get the forms correctly filled out. :)
The failure of this project is that these guys do not think about the
Jörg:
Let me be direct. I understand it -- you don't like the project management choices. You would do it differently. You _are_ doing it differently for your customers
Please take content of this type somewhere else, as your commercial interest makes your 'rants' suspiciously tainted to me
It is simply inappropriate and rude to eat at a free restaurant in the honored guest private dining room, and then loudly complain that the portions were too small, and did not taste good
Take your complaints outside
Thank you, Russ. For those who do not know, Russ has more experience working on large open source projects than most of us combined. Reference http://planet.centos.org/
Although I do not agree with Jörg getting personal I, like others, can understand the frustration of Jörg and probably his last message with the legal threats (thread GPL violations) are his desperate effort to change that.
But Russ misses the point in my opinion. Apart from that commercial interests are totally valid and a lot of people have already argued that Jörg’s point of view is legally totally correct, it is not clear for me why Heinz and Oleksandr do not except any help. They stated several times, that they are short in time. But they did not accept any help offer by Jörg for example.
In my opinion it is unfair and misleading to the community, because people do plan their road map according to those statements. I do not know the reason. But if Heinz and Oleksandr are afraid that they could loose control over the project or do not want to share the burden, they should state it clearly and people can draw their own conclusions from their on.
I definitely hope that this thread is not going to be any longer until Heinz is back from vacation. I do thank Heinz and Oleksandr for their work and support and I do hope that the X2go “community” will settle this argument and will work together in the future as stated in several messages to the list.
Heinz and Oleksandr, if you need help with those legal issues I guess there are a lot of people out here who can give you advise and support you. Just publish that letter from that other company and go open with that.
Thanks,
Paul
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Hello Joerg,
Am 24.09.2010 02:03, schrieb Jörg Sawatzki:
Hey Paul,
In my opinion, a promise should only be given, if you can and want to hold it. How can collaboration work, if you don't trust people?
Again - we are interested in your work with libssh. Please read again:
https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/x2go-dev/2010-September/001054.html
This means: Yes we've noticed you are working on a nice and interesting feature. It must be tested so it'll be a candidate for the next release, because we can't change the actual release and risk any incompatibility.
The maintainer of the openSuSE version for example has included libjpeg-turbo in his build. This too is something we are looking at at the moment.
You are all right and it's great that Alex and Heinz have done a lot of work for us - but that doesn't mean they are allowed to bring others in trouble and waste their time because of false promises! And that does not mean that it is okay to wait until others do all the work again because they are frustrated as hell by not being taken seriously!
Please have a look on the list again. There where Things to do first:
- recreation (vacation)
- protection of the project (more than one person claims the domain)
- protection of our reputation (let our attorney work on the acuses)
Again - the git repo is on our todo list. But all source code is and was all the time published (as dh_make ready tarballs, which are still wanted by other people).
But this is the dev list. We'll post messages here that will make clear if the name will change (which will not stop the project, just giving it a new name), we'll discuss here what will be done next and what will be needed.
And to continue with information: Yes there are reported issues with the x2goplugin, otherwise we would have released it. For example running on windows inside a iframe it happens that the cursor position is missplaced.
best regards,
Heinz
Dear Heinz,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 07:26 +0200 schrieb Heinz-M. Graesing:
[…]
Please have a look on the list again. There where Things to do first:
- recreation (vacation)
thank you for your response. I hope you could enjoy your vacation and also relax a little to get new energy to do more great stuff.
- protection of the project (more than one person claims the domain)
- protection of our reputation (let our attorney work on the acuses)
I am sorry that you have to deal with this unfortunate stuff.
Again - the git repo is on our todo list. But all source code is and was all the time published (as dh_make ready tarballs, which are still wanted by other people).
Could I propose the following intermediate solution?
Could you let Jörg (or someone else) set up the Git repository, so people can base their patches on their and publish their own branches.
I am sure that the person hosting this branch can display a message in the description stating that this is an intermediate solution. So when you are done setting up your Git server or the solution to your liking things can be moved and the location of the “master” Git repository be documented.
I guess, you have some branches in your repository you do not want to publish. And maybe you also want to go over the history if there are confidential things in there. If so, I am sure there is a way to just publish your “public branch”. I would propose the following but I am sure there are better or more convenient ways.
$ cd /tmp/ $ git clone /path/to/your/project $ cd name-of-cloned-project $ git branch -a $ git branch -D names-of-branch-not-to-be-published # repeat as often as you need $ cd .. $ 7z a -t7z -m0=lzma -mx=9 -mfb=64 -md=32m -ms=on x2go-branch.7z name-of-cloned-project
Send that branch to the person you want to set up the Git repository. You can also ask him to review the history first and to amend commits which have inappropriate commit messages.
Or the other repository gets set up and you are asked to push the appropriate branches there.
$ git remote add intermediate <URL>
$ git push intermediate local-to-be-published-branch-name:master- I guess for this intermediate time you could also state if you want the Git administrator set up commit rights to a development or testing branch. So people can push there changes to these branches to get them tested. Later you can easily cherry pick the commits you want to have in X2go for sure.
Sorry for this long message and for bothering you again. I hope this is a good compromise. Probably it is better suited for a Wiki page, but I hope everyone behaves and will keep this thread easily understandable.
If someone can think of a better proposal, please write it down and Heinz and Oleksandr can choose what fits best for them, if they accept this compromise.
Maybe volunteers for setting up and maintaining that intermediate repository can state that again by answering to this message.
Thanks,
Paul
Am 24.09.2010 10:50, schrieb Paul Menzel:
Hello Paul,
It is a great Idea. And I don't see how can we deny someone to do this thing if we don't want it. X2Go is Open Source project and anyone can download all our sources from their location and clone them into GIT. If there is anyone, who will administrate this GIT well, we will definitive upload all our sources in it. But we will although install our GIT, which only represent the structure of http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/ as we promised. It will great if someone can hold all X2Go stuff from us and other people in one place. It will help us although to integrate changes made from other people in mainstream. We will never deny someone to do this even if we can. But we cannot and don't want to deny this.
I don't know who should to do this job. This is a choice of community, maybe per election.
Greetings, alex
Dear Heinz,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 07:26 +0200 schrieb Heinz-M. Graesing:
[…]
Please have a look on the list again. There where Things to do first:
- recreation (vacation)
thank you for your response. I hope you could enjoy your vacation and also relax a little to get new energy to do more great stuff.
- protection of the project (more than one person claims the domain)
- protection of our reputation (let our attorney work on the acuses)
I am sorry that you have to deal with this unfortunate stuff.
Again - the git repo is on our todo list. But all source code is and was all the time published (as dh_make ready tarballs, which are still wanted by other people).
Could I propose the following intermediate solution?
Could you let Jörg (or someone else) set up the Git repository, so people can base their patches on their and publish their own branches.
I am sure that the person hosting this branch can display a message in the description stating that this is an intermediate solution. So when you are done setting up your Git server or the solution to your liking things can be moved and the location of the “master” Git repository be documented.
I guess, you have some branches in your repository you do not want to publish. And maybe you also want to go over the history if there are confidential things in there. If so, I am sure there is a way to just publish your “public branch”. I would propose the following but I am sure there are better or more convenient ways.
$ cd /tmp/ $ git clone /path/to/your/project $ cd name-of-cloned-project $ git branch -a $ git branch -D names-of-branch-not-to-be-published # repeat as often as you need $ cd .. $ 7z a -t7z -m0=lzma -mx=9 -mfb=64 -md=32m -ms=on x2go-branch.7z name-of-cloned-projectSend that branch to the person you want to set up the Git repository. You can also ask him to review the history first and to amend commits which have inappropriate commit messages.
Or the other repository gets set up and you are asked to push the appropriate branches there.
$ git remote add intermediate <URL> $ git push intermediate local-to-be-published-branch-name:master
- I guess for this intermediate time you could also state if you want the Git administrator set up commit rights to a development or testing branch. So people can push there changes to these branches to get them tested. Later you can easily cherry pick the commits you want to have in X2go for sure.
Sorry for this long message and for bothering you again. I hope this is a good compromise. Probably it is better suited for a Wiki page, but I hope everyone behaves and will keep this thread easily understandable.
If someone can think of a better proposal, please write it down and Heinz and Oleksandr can choose what fits best for them, if they accept this compromise.
Maybe volunteers for setting up and maintaining that intermediate repository can state that again by answering to this message.
Thanks,
Paul
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
-- Oleksandr Shneyder Dipl. Informatik X2go Core Developer Team
email: oleksandr.shneyder@obviously-nice.de web: www.obviously-nice.de
--> X2go - everywhere@home
Dear Oleksandr,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 11:26 +0200 schrieb Oleksandr Shneyder:
Am 24.09.2010 10:50, schrieb Paul Menzel:
It is a great Idea. And I don't see how can we deny someone to do this thing if we don't want it. X2Go is Open Source project and anyone can download all our sources from their location and clone them into GIT.
one desirable goal is to preserve the commit history which only you have. (If I have not overlooked anything.) ;-)
If there is anyone, who will administrate this GIT well, we will definitive upload all our sources in it. But we will although install our GIT, which only represent the structure of http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/ as we promised. It will great if someone can hold all X2Go stuff from us and other people in one place. It will help us although to integrate changes made from other people in mainstream. We will never deny someone to do this even if we can. But we cannot and don't want to deny this.
I don't know who should to do this job. This is a choice of community, maybe per election.
That is also a good idea. But since I think this is only an intermediate position the volunteers can maybe coordinate and decide this issue by themselves.
Thanks,
Paul
Am 24.09.2010 11:45, schrieb Paul Menzel:
Dear Oleksandr,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 11:26 +0200 schrieb Oleksandr Shneyder:
one desirable goal is to preserve the commit history which only you have. (If I have not overlooked anything.) ;-)
commit history will be available in "changelog" file. If person who administrate this GIT will do his work well, we will commit our changes although directly in this GIT.
That is also a good idea. But since I think this is only an intermediate position the volunteers can maybe coordinate and decide this issue by themselves.
We will be glad if someone do this work and it will not only intermediate position. This will let us more time for developing and will be really best help from community. In best case, would be nice that someone help us with building of all this packages. It take pretty much time and we cannot always concentrate us on development.
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
-- Oleksandr Shneyder Dipl. Informatik X2go Core Developer Team
email: oleksandr.shneyder@obviously-nice.de web: www.obviously-nice.de
--> X2go - everywhere@home
Oleksandr,
commit history will be available in "changelog" file. If person who administrate this GIT will do his work well, we will commit our changes although directly in this GIT. a changelog is not a commit history and nobody can start setting up a git repo if you don't want to cooperate! Sorry, but Paul has made a really good proposal, but it is now your (or Heinz') task to take your current dev branch (!) and give it to somebody to setup the git! It doesn't help that you have those old tar.gz archives on your webserver.
Paul has made a step by step tutorial for you how that can be done. Please honour his work and do it. And don't ignore his effort again.
Thanks,
Jörg
That is also a good idea. But since I think this is only an intermediate position the volunteers can maybe coordinate and decide this issue by themselves.
We will be glad if someone do this work and it will not only intermediate position. This will let us more time for developing and will be really best help from community. In best case, would be nice that someone help us with building of all this packages. It take pretty much time and we cannot always concentrate us on development.
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
On 24 September 2010 15:45, Jörg Sawatzki <joerg.sawatzki@web.de> wrote: [snip rant]
Paul has made a step by step tutorial for you how that can be done. Please honour his work and do it. And don't ignore his effort again.
Thanks,
Jörg
Don't you ever get tired? I believe you're the only one. You've made your point loud and clear to everyone on the list, if they're interested or not. It seems to me that you've become so angry that you've started to campaign against the project. Take the weekend off and let the foam settle. You've got nothing more to gain from this ranting.
Always remember: http://www.xkcd.com/386/
Best regards,
Jo-Erlend Schinstad
Am 23.09.2010 18:56, schrieb Paul Menzel:
Sorry Paul, but unfortunately you understand is wrong.
We didn't EVER violate GPL. All our sources independent of it release or testing version are accessible over our website www.x2go.org. The location of it is NOT HIDDEN. There is "source code link" on left side of our main page with url of source and binary location: http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/ ALL our work is there, not only stable (pool-lenny) or testing (pool-heuler) versions. Although in mailing list wrote Heinz the location of this packages: https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/x2go-dev/2010-July/000768.html How can we make access to our sources more easier???? But even after the response of one of mailinglist users with direct link on tarball with sources: https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/x2go-dev/2010-September/001040.html even after my direct response: https://lists.berlios.de/pipermail/x2go-dev/2010-September/001058.html The mail-terror "[X2go-dev] GPL violations" has proceed.
GIT. We contribute our sources in tarballs, the same way as Debian do. You can easily download all sources. In every tarball there is file "changelog", so you can see in which version which changes are made and backup to previous version. I realize, that GIT is more easy to use for most of users and we promise to install GIT. But ONLY after release of Baikal. Yes, we had planes to release this version in April. Yes, we didn't made it. But we working VERY HARD to release it as soon as possible. Many projects in Open Source and although in commercial world have the same problems. I can only ask you to wait some time and not to cry every five minute: "you have promised to install GIT in July", "you always say, you'll install GIT soon...". Yes, we will install GIT soon. We will install it just after Baikal will released. And we want to release Baikal as soon as possible. But now I must write the mails like this instead of working on it. We WILL NOT install GIT before Baikal is released, independent of how many time - 5 min, or 5 days we need to do it. We have reasons. I will not describe them, this mail is already way to long. But you can although download tarballs with source code instead of check out GIT.
We appreciative accepting any help of community - critics, bug reports, donations, features requests. If you'll download latest tarball with sources, you'll find a bug in it and you'll send a patch with bugfix - we will be very glad to apply your patch and specify in source code and changelog that this bug was fixed by you. If you will send us a patch with new cool feature, which will be found useful by other x2go users (and us although) not only for you but for all x2go users, we will be happy to include it in the next release. And you can make those patches without GIT to.
We are very happy, that many people use our product in commercial purposes. Our target is to make the best TS product on market. We are very glad if other people modifying x2go to use it in their environment and making this changes accessible for others. How did it for example John with his modifications to fit x2go in VM environment. And many other people do. We also try to help those people with all that we can do, because it exact that way that Open Source work. What I can not understand, that someone use our work and do all what he can do to disturb developing of our project with argumentation that "he is fighting for his rights" (see 1.) And write many mails which discarding our project. And many mails (although personal and the personal mails was awful) in which he say that he want drag us into court because we are violating GPL, even though that ideas of Free Software is for us much more as only the way how we working. But because of this one person we have interrupted to develop x2go, cause both of us had two sleepless nights thinking how can we protect us legally and how can we not let this person to discard us and our project in eyes of our users, friends and community.
yours sincerely, alex
Although I do not agree with Jörg getting personal I, like others, can understand the frustration of Jörg and probably his last message with the legal threats (thread GPL violations) are his desperate effort to change that.
But Russ misses the point in my opinion. Apart from that commercial interests are totally valid and a lot of people have already argued that Jörg’s point of view is legally totally correct, it is not clear for me why Heinz and Oleksandr do not except any help. They stated several times, that they are short in time. But they did not accept any help offer by Jörg for example.
In my opinion it is unfair and misleading to the community, because people do plan their road map according to those statements. I do not know the reason. But if Heinz and Oleksandr are afraid that they could loose control over the project or do not want to share the burden, they should state it clearly and people can draw their own conclusions from their on.
I definitely hope that this thread is not going to be any longer until Heinz is back from vacation. I do thank Heinz and Oleksandr for their work and support and I do hope that the X2go “community” will settle this argument and will work together in the future as stated in several messages to the list.
Heinz and Oleksandr, if you need help with those legal issues I guess there are a lot of people out here who can give you advise and support you. Just publish that letter from that other company and go open with that.
Thanks,
Paul
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
-- Oleksandr Shneyder Dipl. Informatik X2go Core Developer Team
email: oleksandr.shneyder@obviously-nice.de web: www.obviously-nice.de
--> X2go - everywhere@home
Dear Oleksandr,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 10:36 +0200 schrieb Oleksandr Shneyder:
[…]
I am sorry that you had to spend your time to answer my message. I have to admit, that I am not a lawyer and that I did not read every single message in all threads. But from the messages I read I think they had some facts.
I sent my other message with the Git proposal some minutes ago before I read your message. If you do not want that, please reply shortly with
»Please take no actions. The Git repository will be published
after the Baikal release.«I am sorry about your sleepless nights and hope everything will turn out good.
Thanks,
Paul
Am 24.09.2010 11:00, schrieb Paul Menzel:
Dear Oleksandr,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 10:36 +0200 schrieb Oleksandr Shneyder:
[…]
I am sorry that you had to spend your time to answer my message. I have to admit, that I am not a lawyer and that I did not read every single message in all threads. But from the messages I read I think they had some facts.
That is what I mean, if I say, that he try to damage our reputation. There are a lot of people in the list, who didn't read all of this stuff and think, that we try to hide something from community. But we don't.
I sent my other message with the Git proposal some minutes ago before I read your message. If you do not want that, please reply shortly with
»Please take no actions. The Git repository will be published after the Baikal release.«I am sorry about your sleepless nights and hope everything will turn out good.
It's ok. It is a good idea and have nothing to do with our GIT. Our GIT will only represent source that we publishing on our site. But GIT that you mean will although include work of other people. It is possible to install this GIT right now. Actually it was always possible to install it and it can do anyone who have community respect.
Thanks,
Paul
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
-- Oleksandr Shneyder Dipl. Informatik X2go Core Developer Team
email: oleksandr.shneyder@obviously-nice.de web: www.obviously-nice.de
--> X2go - everywhere@home
Oleksandr,
if I download a tarball every night and put it into some git repository, the whole thing is useless.
How do you expect us to work with code and track bugs if we do not have a source tree with concrete revisions?
You have never worked with VCS, have you? I have the impression that you don't really have any experience with developing a project in a community.
Even though debian publishes tar.gz as well, they definitely have VCS respositories (a friend of mine is Debian developer) - because else it would almost IMPOSSIBLE to track issues and contribute.
But I am really tired of explaining that again and again. You don't see the advantage or you don't want to see it. As I said, I could setup a git and download your tar.gz files every night (I cannot do more than that I'm afraid) to import the stuff, but it would probably be quite useless.
"Hey devs, I want to file a bug I found in x2golistsessions in the tar.gz I downloaded on July 12th, 12:34 UTC." *haha* That will be the kind of bug reports I can give you. Doesn't make sense, does it?
You have decided to go on with a close development and we probably have no other chance than accepting it.
It's sad that we have all this trouble and so much ideas and innovation and energy gets lost because you cannot take those two minutes to get your stuff (and commit history!) into a repo as paul suggested.
You have wasted hours of my time and made me frustrated as hell just because you aren't able to hold your promise and do us all a favor that takes you only 5 minutes. If I'd only have a small chance to do it myself...but I haven't. We are all asking for a small thing that could make a big improvement for all of us, but please understand that even if somebody else setups the repository, you'd still have to contribute and give him a snapshot of the dev branch with the history of commits.
I am moving on to some other project, I have done all I could do for you. And I am out of energy.
Jörg
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 11:37 +0200 schrieb Oleksandr Shneyder:
Am 24.09.2010 11:00, schrieb Paul Menzel:
Dear Oleksandr,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 10:36 +0200 schrieb Oleksandr Shneyder:
[…]
I am sorry that you had to spend your time to answer my message. I have to admit, that I am not a lawyer and that I did not read every single message in all threads. But from the messages I read I think they had some facts.
That is what I mean, if I say, that he try to damage our reputation. There are a lot of people in the list, who didn't read all of this stuff and think, that we try to hide something from community. But we don't.
I sent my other message with the Git proposal some minutes ago before I read your message. If you do not want that, please reply shortly with
»Please take no actions. The Git repository will be published after the Baikal release.«I am sorry about your sleepless nights and hope everything will turn out good.
It's ok. It is a good idea and have nothing to do with our GIT. Our GIT will only represent source that we publishing on our site. But GIT that you mean will although include work of other people. It is possible to install this GIT right now. Actually it was always possible to install it and it can do anyone who have community respect.
Thanks,
Paul
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Dear Jörg,
Am Freitag, den 24.09.2010, 16:03 +0200 schrieb Jörg Sawatzki:
if I download a tarball every night and put it into some git repository, the whole thing is useless.
How do you expect us to work with code and track bugs if we do not have a source tree with concrete revisions?
[…]
if I understood Oleksandr correctly he (unfortunately) does not use Git for his development work. If I am not mistaken from a talk with Heinz he is using Subversion/SVN. But besides that I do not know anything about Heinz’ or Oleksandr’ development setup at all.
[…]
It's sad that we have all this trouble and so much ideas and innovation and energy gets lost because you cannot take those two minutes to get your stuff (and commit history!) into a repo as paul suggested.
Maybe we can start from the latest source tarball. And if there is a chance to get the commit history we can add it later by rebasing, if that is possible.
Although it is not optimal I hope this will be at least a something to start from.
Matthew offered already his help in the thread »Git Repo«. I would suggest to wait until Monday, so people have time to catch up with the messages and to voice their opinion.
[…]
I am moving on to some other project, I have done all I could do for you. And I am out of energy.
I would regret this very much. After all these discussion and sadly unlovely debate, we all have one goal after all. Jörg, I hope you can wait until Monday or Tuesday or if you agree with Matthew answer to him, that you would approve his proposal.
I know after reading all these messages it seems impossible, but I wish that everybody will show what strong and great characters they have and get their acts together and collaborate in the future. If that happens, this would in the end even turn this debate into something good.
(And we are no girls, right. So we can be friends after an argument. ;-) ¹)
Thanks,
Paul
¹ To all females reading this, please do not take offense. It is meant as a joke and is just based on silly prejudices. Your participation in the X2go project is needed too!
Hi there,
On Fr 24 Sep 2010 16:42:49 CEST Paul Menzel wrote:
if I understood Oleksandr correctly he (unfortunately) does not use Git for his development work. If I am not mistaken from a talk with Heinz he is using Subversion/SVN. But besides that I do not know anything about Heinz’ or Oleksandr’ development setup at all.
If that might be of any help I could offer an intermediate (or
permanent?) subversion repository on:
http://svn.das-netzwerkteam.de/websvn
SVN users could continue using SVN, GIT/BZR users can choose their
favourite VCS locally.
I've been following the heated discussion and had to my tongue not to
contribute on the list... However, there are a few aspects I would
like to add...
- Maybe asking the guy from gpl-violations.org for support and
counselling might well be a good idea. As far as I have heard and read
he is a very positive, good-willing and supportive man and maybe he
can clarify the situation.
Normally, the attorneys from GPL-Violations support you in creating a
project setup and workflow that is GPL conformant. As far as I heard,
rather than pointing with the finger at you for your past issues and
telling you what a bad guy you have been, they support you in getting
things straight for the future. I do think this might be helpful, also
in terms of project and developer reputation.
- A repository that contains the very latest code (i.e. esp. last
night's coding of Alex and Heinz) should be the only usage scenario
thinkable. This is what people you want to contribute are asking for
(including me).
@Alex: it is not necessary to run a GIT (or similar product)
repository just for your files under obviously-nice.de/deb. This the
location people install their debian systems from. I recommend a plain
apache for this purpose (as there currently is). Additionally it might
be nice to have an archive for older packages or distros (but neither
in form of a VCS repository). But may be I misunderstood you in one of
your former postings where you mentioned the planned GIT on your server.
- Access control to a public X2go repository (using SVN terminology)...
o developers and contributors have an account o Alex and Heinz work on /trunk (ideally 2-3 check-ins per week, only if there is some valuable code to check-in, of course) o community can request branches under /branch and copy latest /trunk (not some old tar.gz) to their branch and do customization there o Alex and Heinz can pick the good ideas and fixes from the branches and merge them into trunk
(In GIT terminology, replace /trunk with ,,master'' branch, rest ist
the same.)
Only last weekend I have started on implementing an ltsp-x2goclient
(an x2goclient that plugins into LTSP). Unfortunately, I had used
Jörg's python implementation that ran into licensing troubles
(http://github.com/joerg86/pyx2go) just today. As I plan to continue
the work on the python based ltsp-x2goclient I will have to creatively
rewrite what used to be called pyx2go. The result of this upcoming
work will be a complete rewrite from scratch and it will be published
under GPL (what a waste of time!!!!). It will neither be bound to a
contractor or similar. Thus, people who started with pyx2go will soon
have an alternative python module that will be fully compatible with
the dead project pyx2go.For any form of conflict management, coaching, moderation within the
project may I recommend a very competent and communicative woman to
the X2go project, namely my love and partner and most valuable
colleague and councellor. Please contact me privately for her contact data if there is any need in the project concerning communication, conflict manament, personal coaching, moderation. The work she can offer can be done via phone or in person (however, not via mail...).
light+love, Mike
--
DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, dorfstr. 27, 24245 barmissen fon: +49 (4302) 281418, fax: +49 (4302) 281419
mail: m.gabriel@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de
freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xf...
It's ok. It is a good idea and have nothing to do with our GIT. Our GIT will only represent source that we publishing on our site. But GIT that you mean will although include work of other people. It is possible to install this GIT right now. Actually it was always possible to install it and it can do anyone who have community respect. This is NOT true as I already explained a couple of times. GIT is a way to actively collaborate (this needs a branch with a commit history) and not a different way to serve the content of your tar.gz source files on your webserver! If it was true what you are saying, nobody would care about GIT because everybody could download the tar.gz and have the same result!
If it would be as easy as you claim, then I'd already have the git thing running for two months.
Please read about the benefits and how VCS work on the web before you give a wrong statement about things you probably have never really seen in action.
JÖrg
Thanks,
Paul
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
A publicly accessible VCS is necessary in order to collaborate on any open source project.
I think what Alex and Heinz would like is to be able to do is somehow be able to separate their code from community contributions. Perhaps they think that they would be able to market just their 'devs' code in some way. But with the x2go foundation being already built upon GPL NX libraries I can tell you that this is not possible. ALL x2go code to date is fully GPL and always will be. There is absolutely no advantage to separate code or two VCS's or anything like this.
What is needed is for the project to put up it's existing GIT repository and allow the community to make contributions in some branches which can then be examined and tested and merged or rebased into the HEAD. This way contributors can work on various pieces and when they have something good they can propose it for merging and invite other community members to test their work.
In all this the 'devs', Alex and Heinz, act as the 'editors' and
evaluate the pieces with regards to the overall direction of the project
and its architecture. There is no advantage to waiting on any of this
and putting up the repository should take just a matter of minutes and I
think Alex and Heinz should not be afraid to share the source
repository. They retain the merge rights and so still have control.
And then they can add others with merge rights as the project moves forward.
Regards, Gerry
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010, Gerry Reno wrote:
A publicly accessible VCS is necessary in order to collaborate on any open source project.
a demonstrably false assertion --- sending diffs against unrolled tarballs was the method used to attain most of the Linux kernel in the early days
-- Russ herrold
Well, ok, sure. You can do it with stone knives and bearskins. But that is not very efficient.
I don't think you're going to find very many open source projects these days not using a VCS for code collaboration.
Regards, Gerry
On 09/24/2010 02:34 PM, R P Herrold wrote:
sending diffs against unrolled tarballs was the method used to attain most of the Linux kernel in the early days
-- Russ herrold
- On 24.09.2010 08:34 PM, R P Herrold wrote:
a demonstrably false assertion --- sending diffs against unrolled tarballs was the method used to attain most of the Linux kernel in the early days
Please, do not compare apples and oranges.
"In the early days", the Linux kernel did not have that much code nor contributors, so working with diffs was fine (though still somewhat painful when merging stuff.)
Try to run the Linux Kernel development without a decent VCS and you will most likely fail due to the complexity of code, contributors and also roles.
This said, I don't think x2go is such a high traffic project. A VCS may still be useful, as the Developers are always complaining (and so are some users) about how much time they spent on the project and I foresee even greater qq, when using diffs only, as a merge conflict is likely to take some time to get resolved if several users are working on the same file.
Best regards,
Mihai
On Fri, 2010-09-24 at 13:07 -0400, Gerry Reno wrote:
A publicly accessible VCS is necessary in order to collaborate on any open source project.
I think what Alex and Heinz would like is to be able to do is somehow be able to separate their code from community contributions. Perhaps they think that they would be able to market just their 'devs' code in some way. But with the x2go foundation being already built upon GPL NX libraries I can tell you that this is not possible. ALL x2go code to date is fully GPL and always will be. There is absolutely no advantage to separate code or two VCS's or anything like this.
What is needed is for the project to put up it's existing GIT repository and allow the community to make contributions in some branches which can then be examined and tested and merged or rebased into the HEAD. This way contributors can work on various pieces and when they have something good they can propose it for merging and invite other community members to test their work.
In all this the 'devs', Alex and Heinz, act as the 'editors' and evaluate the pieces with regards to the overall direction of the project and its architecture. There is no advantage to waiting on any of this and putting up the repository should take just a matter of minutes and I think Alex and Heinz should not be afraid to share the source repository. They retain the merge rights and so still have control.
And then they can add others with merge rights as the project moves forward. <snip> Please, all. I think we've gotten our answers and we are just chewing up a lot of time and burning up good will. It seems to me:
- There will be GIT from the devs after Baikal and not before.
- We are free to set up a best effort GIT ourselves before then.
Those are the answers. If we like them, let's run with them and get back to work. If we don't like them, and we've said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and said we don't like them, and those who hold the keys and contributed the original code are not agreeing and not breaking the law, then please stop saying you don't like them.
Can we stop now and get on with #1 and #2? Thanks - John
Hi John, Yes, we heard this. My comments were in regard to WHY the devs think they need to delay. Sharing the VCS immediately does not impact any in-flight release at all. You can continue to make progress on the Baikal release while other people operate on their own branches and none of it conflicts.
A separate GIT is just silly and not an option that makes any kind of sense.
I am appealing to Alex and Heinz to consider doing this now rather than later. And when they do finally have Baikal ready then other community members will also have good contributions ready for their evaluation/merge for the next release after Baikal. Things would move quite a bit faster doing this way.
Regards, Gerry
On 09/24/2010 04:41 PM, John A. Sullivan III wrote:
It seems to me:
- There will be GIT from the devs after Baikal and not before.
- We are free to set up a best effort GIT ourselves before then.
this leaves nothing more to be said. let's close this threat now.
good night everybody,
tobias
On Thu, 23 Sep 2010, R P Herrold wrote:
It is simply inappropriate and rude to eat at a free restaurant in the honored guest private dining room, and then loudly complain that the portions were too small, and did not taste good
-
das.t -
Eli K. -
Gerry Reno -
Heinz-M. Graesing -
Jo-Erlend Schinstad -
John A. Sullivan III -
Jörg Sawatzki -
Mihai Moldovan -
Mike Gabriel -
Oleksandr Shneyder -
Paul Menzel -
R P Herrold