Hey list,
I just got an email back from Heinz - a private mail! You know that I have been discussing about the plugin and sources with him and Alex on this list for a couple of months now. Other people have asked as well where the sources for the plugin are.
Obviously they think that I cannot read C++ code and sent me the link to the plugin.cpp source (http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/mozplugin/) again - in the hope that I believe them. But unfortunately I had a look into the code (trying to build it) and saw that it executes a binary: an extended version of x2goclient with heaps of new command line options. Asking for the source (which is your and my right according to GPL) I got one of these famous excuses saying "oh, we are in the process of changing to QTBrowserPlugin" and so on.
In short: 99% of x2goplugin's sources are not published - this affects (modified and not modified) third-party components as well. Everybody who publically distrubtes GPL software in binary form and does NOT provide a link to the sources violates the license. The GPL doesn't say "if you have time and the weather is nice you can publish the sources if you want to".
Therefore I would not recommend anybody to use the plugin in a production environment and integrate it into any project! It will be you who will get into court if one of your customers enforces his GPL rights and you have distributed it in your project.
Just to let you know: I feel a bit fooled with all the excuses and that they try to somehow get around legal requirements by sending me some stuff that's only a 7.5K file wrapping around the actual component.
In my opinion, the way they deal with community input/ideas/contributions is ignorance. Nothing of the critics and proposals was taken seriously. We still don't have a GIT repo - and that would take them 5 minutes or less! But that's alright - we don't have to have git. But we HAVE to follow legal requirements in the GPL. And not next year, but NOW!
I spent a lot of time and energy into this and the result: I am maintaining my own python code externally now, because they don't let me contirubte! And the worst result: I am frustrated as hell, that I spend months waiting and writing dozens of mails to enforce my rights that I have by law.
After all, I'd just like to inform all of you, that I am going to report this to gpl-violations.org as after explaining it again and again I still see no change. I'll inform NoMachine as well and advise them to enforce their legal rights as well - it is their code as well!
I am sorry for bothering you with this, but I think it is important to draw things like this into plubic attention
Jörg
Jörg,
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:47:40 +0200, Jörg Sawatzki <joerg.sawatzki@web.de> wrote:
Which new command line options ? I've seen "--embed-into" and "--config", though it was new, but after reading the sources of the client I've found them.
Do you see other options ?
Guillaume
Hi,
where? All the files on x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb are two years or older! Where's the corresponding x2goclient for the plugin? Heinz wrote me that the build environment for the plugin was already changed for QtBrowserPlugin and it's not available anymore *LOL But maybe you know more than the project leaders ^^
Jörg
Am Mittwoch, den 22.09.2010, 20:31 +0200 schrieb contact@gmli.fr:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:37:46 +0200, Jörg Sawatzki <joerg.sawatzki@web.de> wrote:
where? All the files on x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb are two years or older! Where's the corresponding x2goclient for the plugin?
http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/pool-heuler/x2goclient/x2goclient_3.01-11.... 01-Jul-2010 20:12 6.7M
The new-but-not-released client is in "heuler".
Did you tried it ?
If we get the sources of the QtBrowserPlugin version, it's really good news ! I was expecting it in med/long term.
Guillaume
Hey,
didn't build the plugin with it yet....but if that is really true that this is the version that they have used for the plugin.... Congratulations, you know more than the so called project leaders *LOOOL* It's sooooo ridiculous!
I am not in the mood of building the whole thing now to check if it's really the right version, but thanks.
I will probably completely drop x2go - it is making me and my customers more trouble than it gives advantages to us. I cannot tell my customers: Two gurus play the mighty gods of x2go and don't let us help ourselves, if we need to fix bugs or extend things.
I don't see x2go as a great new project - it's just some wrappers around nomachine's libraries and can be done in a couple of days. The technology is old: ssh, nx, sftp! I have already rebuilt the client side in python and the server will follow - after that I won't care anymore that Alex and Heinz are not able to setup a git repository within two months!
Jörg
Am Mittwoch, den 22.09.2010, 21:04 +0200 schrieb contact@gmli.fr:
Hello List!
Unfortunately, I have wrote my last e-mail before I have seen all that e-mails that Jörg wrote. I don't want to excuse myself, but it is ridiculous to say that we violating GPL! Jörg, it is not my problem, that you cannot read. Heinz have wrote on 09.07.2010 this E-Mail on list(test version of baikal and some further informations):
Hello x2gousers,
let's start this mail with the good news. After reading the next lines, you'll be able to test the new features of our new release. You'll just have to add the following line to your /etc/apt/sources.list:
deb http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/ heuler main
Please don't remove the main x2go repository. After doing an apt-get update you'll be able to access new versions of x2goclient, x2goserver and the new packages x2godesktopsharing and x2goplasmoid. The new packages are not yet named 3.1 (planned version number of baikal). Little baby seals a called "Heuler" in german, so this is a preview and not the new release. Please keep in mind, that there are still some things need to be done before we can do the "real" release.
The new features/changelog:
x2goclient old 3.01-5 new 3.01-11 New features:
- plugin config options sound, exportfs, adsl, compression, quality, dpi, kbdlayout, kbdtype
- embeded mode for firefox plugin
- updated interface
- support for fs encodings
- shadow sessions
- xdmcp sessions
- commandline option for printing in LDAP mode
We always put tarballs with sources in the same directory that binary packages. ALWAYS. They WAS ALWAYS accessible by ALL people that want to use it. The "modified x2goclient's source which is used by mozilla plugin" exist only in your imagination.
Dear X2Go users. We invest all our free time in X2Go. We doing all that we can do to release new version as soon as possible. I have spent today more as two hours to write this two e-mails, because English is not my native language and it is not so easy for me. I could use this time to write a lot of X2Go code. Please forgive us, that we can't answer all your E-mails, but we reading all of them and we are very appreciative for all your critics and wishes. As your see, we also trying to make them real in our software. Please understand us, it is not easy to do all this things at same time: write x2go, manage this project and do our regular job. We have also friends and families. We want to make developing of x2go our main occupation and we will thankfully accept all your patches. But if we will starting to do this now, we would have no time to develop X2Go any more.
And now I'll go to sleep 5 hours before I must be again in my office to do my daily job.
Yours sincerely,
Oleksandr Shneyder Dipl. Informatik X2go Core Developer Team
email: oleksandr.shneyder@obviously-nice.de web: www.obviously-nice.de
--> X2go - everywhere@home
And two words I forgot to say in my last E-mail.
We are very appreciative to all you people who trying to make our life easier and helping other people in our list. Thank you very much, guys. Without you we couldn't do all that work.
-- Oleksandr Shneyder Dipl. Informatik X2go Core Developer Team
email: oleksandr.shneyder@obviously-nice.de web: www.obviously-nice.de
--> X2go - everywhere@home
On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 19:47 +0200, Jörg Sawatzki wrote: the GPL. I, too, am frustrated about the lack of access to all the source and the difficulty in finding the source that is available (although less so than you because I have not had the time that I wish I had to look into the sources and contribute more).
However, I believe you are seriously misreading Heinz (with whom I have now worked for a couple of years) and Oleksandr. Yes, they should (make that "must") publish the code but I also realize they are two honest and sincere fellows with full time jobs outside of X2Go who have given us an enormous project with no significant financial backing of which I'm aware. Sometimes there are just not enough hours in the day (week, month) to get it all done. Perhaps we may disagree with their priorities but let's not think there is some malicious, hidden agenda. Receiving such emails probably does more to make them wonder why they ever launched this project than it does to help the situation.
I am painfully familiar with being a completely overwhelmed open source maintainer. Sometimes there is not even enough time to enable volunteers who are willing to help (set up git, wiki, code, etc.) to help. It can just feel completely overwhelming. So let's please contribute, guide, even positively correct but let's not jump up and down on the dev's heads. That doesn't help at all. I'm am sincerely grateful for what Heinz and Oleksandr have done despite my concerns which are very close to yours. Peace - John
PS - regarding the plugin specifically, I believe they have made it clear that the plugin is NOT released. They have kindly responded to requests for access to the plugin by list members by making it available. Perhaps now they wish they had not been so kind and kept it under wraps until it was ready for release including source.
John,
X2go would be the greatest thing in the world if these guys stopped blocking the community contributions! Why do they have time to develop a plugin but not for setting up git (5 minutes)? Why do they follow invitations and hold a talk about x2go at Linuxstammtisch Munich?
I'd love to go to that talk and tell them: guys, this talk will end 10 minutes earlier and we gonna setup GIT!
Why do they have time to write heaps of mails with excuses? Why do they have time for publicity things?
If it is overwhelming, you should get somebody else to manage the project. They have the position of the project leaders and the responsability. If it comes to court, they can explain to the judge that they have felt overwhelming with following the law!
For what should I be thankful? That all my customers that wanna do something with x2go run away? Because they block all my contributions for months? That I couldn't get on in the garden today since I was busy with this stuff?
What would you tell your clients if they ask you to do this and that with x2go? And you say: Nope, I cannot! And they say: Whaaat, isn't it Open Source? :(
It is so embarassing and frustrating...
You have no way to help them, they have no time and they even ignore it when you want to enforce your right.
If I count all the mails and execuses it must have taken them a lot more time than just setting up this bloody git!
Jörg
The plugin is available online! As soon as you publish binaries you MUST publish sources according to GPL. Released or not!
hi,
yes, you are right that it is important to enforce the gpl and therefore that the sourcecode is made available.
BUT:
[ ] you are aware of that the plugin has not been released yet, that the binaries that actually are out are not a release and _not_ intended for a productive environment right now?
[ ] you are aware of that x2go drains loads of energy from the two with promoting the procect etc?
[ ] you are aware of that heinz has stated that he already is facing dificulties that make a lawyer necessary, time, nervers, money?
[ ] you give credid that this project is happening in spare time, that we get a great software for free? and there _is_ a life next to a pc. i am more than grateful that we do get such a great project, that they put this much effort and energy into x2go. i do want to honor it.
[ ] you know that they are huge supportes of oss, gpl and the like, that they have released the source code to the released (!) components and i am 100% sure that this will also happen to the new plugin ... once it has been released?
i am sorry, but even though i believe that you are right to ask for sourcecode, i firmly do believe that in this case you are going too far, hitting the very wrong people!
tobias
I think we have all posted about getting the sources for all components at one time or another.
I wish Heinz would just post an example build using the plugin sources so that this GPL issue would be at an end.
As I posted earlier regarding GPL source:
The GPL does not care about 'releases'. It only cares about source distribution occurring in concert with binary distribution. Whenever you distribute any binary code in any manner whatsoever, the GPL requires that the source for that binary code also be made available in a form that can reconstruct the binary.
You cannot say, Oh, we haven't reached a release point on that component yet so we're only going to give you binaries. That doesn't fly as far as the GPL.
Heinz, this is a good project, but I think you need to forthrightly address these concerns about the GPL and the code. The natives are restless.
Regards, Gerry
Hi,
Once again - the plugin is available on a public webserver and the GPL applies. If they don't want that, they have to take the binaries offline or protect access to them through username/password to only selected persons.
What would you do if you spent hours and hours and the result is that you still don't get the code even so you have the RIGHT to? What would you do? You want your right, you are writing mails to the responsible persons and after months, you still don't have it?
It is very sad, but if Heinz doesn't want to do it voluntarily, a judge will have to force him to sit down for two minutes and upload the code.
He is the project leader and has the responsability - if he waits until people get a lawyer to enforce their rights, it's his problem.
Jörg
Am 22.09.2010 22:19, Jörg Sawatzki schrieb:
This article was not approved / written by the x2go-devs!
Stefan
Stefan Bauer ----------------------------------------- PGP: 36D1 1570 DCAD B767 EABE F60D 6BCA 7AD4 79EB C4EC -------- plzk.de - Linux - because it works ----------
Hi,
Listen, I downloaded the x2goplugin from plugin.x2go.org - so the guys behind plugin.x2go.org are required by license to give me the sources if I ask for it! That has nothing to do with the fact who has written the article on linux magazine!
Stefan
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
no -- not unless the distributor is not the author (i.e., not the person entitled to assert a 'copyright') of the code in question -- the GPLv2 is a license that covers NON-creators ... and terms of distribution by non-authors
The license may not apply -- this remains to be seen, does it not?
Reading I see: "notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed" --- "may be" is not exclusive as to "must only be" distributed under that license; it is stating a permissive way to distribute, and for a non-author (a distributor) to properly be protected from assertions of a copyright infringement by the initial authors, via that license fixing certain terms
Did the authors holding the copyright receive some 'thing of value' from you that is 'consideration' underlying formation a contract requiring them to deliver something to you. If they are the creators of the code, they can be as stingy and slow as they wish as to releasing sources as they wish, unless you have some contractual right to get at their properly (again, the g p LICENSE is a license applying to persons DISTRIBUTING binaries derived from sources [but who are not the copyright holder]
All that said, the internet has created a great sense of entitlement in many people --- yelling loudly (and starting a conversation with acusations) seems counter-productive
If the authors need help publishing sources, they may contact me out of band, and I'll be happy to assist with resources to get a public archive up and running
-- Russ herrold
Hi Russ,
True! Heinz and Alex distribute plugin binaries that contain GPLed NoMachine libraries - and as they are both not holding the copyright of that code, they cannot simply publish it under some other (proprietary) license. They can distribute their own code under a commercial license, but then they could not integrate it with NX and their stuff would be quite....useless. So, after all: Sources need to be published with any binary if they are built from only a single line of thrid-party code where you don't have the copyright!
Anyway, seems like the source thing is quite clear now and they seem to have published it.
If you want to get forward with it, fork it like I did with my pyx2go client, host it on github and be independent. Setting up a repository there is a lot faster than waiting for months.
Jörg
the developers were so nice and _due_to_great_demand_ to give us a PREVEW
of what is going to come. this was pure generosity. nothing has been
released, this is absolutely inofficial and i am _more_than_sure_ that
we _are_ going to get the source code.
if you are reading this list you will know that heinz is on vacation, so
there will nothing happen right now. i do not want him to work now as i
know how stressed he is. give him a rest!!!
if you say x2go is rubish and can be done within minuts - fine, then go for it. but please do not bug people who are investing more than enough in oss! especially stop threatening them in this absolutely unnecessarily rude manner.
if you think a project is rubish, do something better.
enough said. i am off this threat now.
Tobias,
it is very nice that you want to protect the two. Oh yes, and I am a stupid idiot who unnecessarily "bugs" people because he wants to get his right. I sometimes wonder if we live in a banana republic when people tell me heaps of reasons why they don't have to follow the law...
I am asking for the source for a month or two. Taking the build environment, putting it in a .tar archive and uploading it to a webserver takes not more than ONE MINUTE and it would absolutely fullfill the requirements of the GPL and I would never ever have been complaining. Do I expect too much if I ask him to take ONE MINUTE to follow the laws and license requirements?
And btw. I want the code of the plugin that I have downloaded right now. And not the code of a polished release that comes out next year or so! I want to submit extensions and bugfixes BEFORE the next release and not after!
But thank you for treating me like an idiot just because I fight for my right.
Jörg
Am Mittwoch, den 22.09.2010, 23:04 +0200 schrieb das.t:
We're not treating you like an idiot for correctly pointing out the things that should be done; we are grateful for that. We're treating you like an idiot for the way you are going about it.
Yes, they should follow the requirements of the GPL. Yes, they did not have to accede to the many requests to have access to the plugin before they were really ready to give either the binaries or the source to everyone. Yes, they did not have to share any of this project but could have kept it as a simple in-house project. Given all of of those yeses, I do eagerly await the release of the source and will wait until it is released realizing that the delay hurts me but not more than not having the project at all. In fact, I eagerly await the time when our business turns cash positive so we can financially support the project. If they were a corporation making a profit off the backs of open source developers and hoarding the source code for nefarious reasons, I'd be far less patient. If you are tired of waiting, go away. Peace - John
On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 23:26 +0200, Jörg Sawatzki wrote:
Thank you for sending me away, John! Very friendly. I will go away - after I got the source of the software running on my computer right now! And not the source of the software that is released in a couple of months. Please respect that this is my guaranteed right and that I won't go away before I have enforced it. And I will do that - even if I need a lawyer and a judge. This is not a banana republic where you can only follow the laws and requirements if you like them or if you have time to do that.
Am Mittwoch, den 22.09.2010, 18:01 -0400 schrieb John A. Sullivan III:
-
contact＠gmli.fr -
das.t -
Gerry Reno -
John A. Sullivan III -
Jörg Sawatzki -
Oleksandr Shneyder -
R P Herrold -
Stefan Bauer