I know that Uli pointed out *you are struggling with**(human) resources and** most of the administrating members prefer mailing lists over** clumsy web forums- but may I suggest:*
*You have a great product you maintain with X2Go.Everybody understands this eats up a lot of ressources.*
*If you created an X2Go Forum you could potentially build up a wider user base. They can then help each other, which makes them happy (and potentially also takes some work from the mailing lists). This again helps a growing user base and vice versa. Potentially a wider user base and more publicity helps you gain more sponsors and donations. And so on. *
*Further Devs may get further ideas from users, as most users find forums easier to handle than a mailing list.*
*I strongly believe this could be an overall win-win.*
*Alternatively, I could offer myself to consider building an (inofficial) forum. I will need help with some admins/moderators though and I will need time, but I like to support good products.*
*Let me know what you think. By the way I am German as well.*
I know that Uli pointed out *you are struggling with**(human) resources and** most of the administrating members prefer mailing lists over** clumsy web forums- but may I suggest:*
*You have a great product you maintain with X2Go.Everybody understands this eats up a lot of ressources.*
*If you created an X2Go Forum you could potentially build up a wider user base. They can then help each other, which makes them happy (and potentially also takes some work from the mailing lists). This again helps a growing user base and vice versa. Potentially a wider user base and more publicity helps you gain more sponsors and donations. And so on. *
*Further Devs may get further ideas from users, as most users find forums easier to handle than a mailing list.*
*I strongly believe this could be an overall win-win.*
*Alternatively, I could offer myself to consider building an (inofficial) forum. I will need help with some admins/moderators though and I will need time, but I like to support good products.*
*Let me know what you think. *
Am 15.10.19 um 22:05 schrieb Alexanderstr Miete:
*Alternatively, I could offer myself to consider building an (inofficial) forum. I will need help with some admins/moderators though and I will need time, but I like to support good products.*
And where do you believe these helpers would come from, when we're already lacking volunteers for the wiki and mailing lists?
Sorry, no. This idea is not going to fly. There once was a web forum for X2Go, and the only thing that I saw happening there was that the handful of users that posted there was utterly clueless and recommended things to each other that were against all good practices. For the exact same reason - lack of *knowledgeable* volunteers that have time to monitor the forum.
-Stefan
-- BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 10:05 PM Alexanderstr Miete <alexstrbonn@gmail.com> wrote:
I know that Uli pointed out you are struggling with(human) resources and most of the administrating members prefer mailing lists over clumsy web forums- but may I suggest: You have a great product you maintain with X2Go.Everybody understands this eats up a lot of ressources.
If you created an X2Go Forum you could potentially build up a wider user base. They can then help each other, which makes them happy (and potentially also takes some work from the mailing lists). This again helps a growing user base and vice versa. Potentially a wider user base and more publicity helps you gain more sponsors and donations. And so on.
Well, that is all possible with the mailing list, too. We also have an IRC chat which can be used for quick questions.
Further Devs may get further ideas from users, as most users find forums easier to handle than a mailing list.
Unfortunately we have more ideas than resources...
I strongly believe this could be an overall win-win.
Alternatively, I could offer myself to consider building an (inofficial) forum. I will need help with some admins/moderators though and I will need time, but I like to support good products.
Let me know what you think.
Thank you for the offer. However: As you have seen in the past traffic on this mailing list is quite low with not many people answering questions. This would not change with a forum. I suppose we would not drop the mailing list so we'd have both which would even _increase_ the required time for doing support stuff. So thank you again, but I do not see the benefit.
If you want to get involved in the x2go community (everybody can, so spread the word!) there are tasks that need to be done:
- update/revise the wiki,
- clean up the bug tracker (there's a lot of spam and many old bugs)
- move the bug tracker to something modern
- probably more (Stefan?)
Uli
Am 17.10.19 um 07:53 schrieb Ulrich Sibiller:
If you want to get involved in the x2go community (everybody can, so spread the word!) there are tasks that need to be done:
- update/revise the wiki,
- clean up the bug tracker (there's a lot of spam and many old bugs)
- move the bug tracker to something modern
- probably more (Stefan?)
We need:
- knowledgeable users/admins answering questions, so it's not always the same handful of people, because this gets tiring pretty soon
- mailing list admins (spam removal, reminding people to subscribe before posting)
- bugtracker admins (spam removal, triaging)
- wiki admins (managing accounts)
- wiki users (documentation, design/layout, cleanup)
- event volunteers (same as above, if it's always the same handful of people staffing the booths, it gets tiring)
- evangelists (X2Go advocacy, talks, presentations)
- translators
- a small but reliable video crew (with equipment) for talks/presentations/events
- and last but not least, coders.
Kind Regards, Stefan Baur
BAUR-ITCS UG (haftungsbeschränkt) Geschäftsführer: Stefan Baur Eichenäckerweg 10, 89081 Ulm | Registergericht Ulm, HRB 724364 Fon/Fax 0731 40 34 66-36/-35 | USt-IdNr.: DE268653243
You wrote: Well, that is all possible with the mailing list, too. We also have an IRC chat which can be used for quick questions.
Not all is possible with this mailing list. Especially users cannot browse for previous issues which may have been solved in the last 10+ years. Also I cannot search for keywords to see if another user may have encountered or solved similar issue I face. Thats a great downside. Also its very difficult for new users to become friends with X2Go, as a forum is much more approachable, "visual" and "friendly" than a mailing list, which feels a bit "exclusive". This alienates potential X2Go users; at least it did this with me at the beginning.
Its your call in the end, you are the devs. If you are opposed there is no point. But please consider it, for X2Go's sake; its a great product and I wish it was spreading fast. Sometimes if there was not the right time in the past the right time comes later. Counterquestion: Why don't you just move this mailing list to a Forum Platform. Then you have the same interaction with the missing benefits.
Am Do., 17. Okt. 2019 um 06:53 Uhr schrieb Ulrich Sibiller < ulrich.sibiller@gmail.com>:
On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 10:05 PM Alexanderstr Miete <alexstrbonn@gmail.com> wrote:
I know that Uli pointed out you are struggling with(human) resources
You have a great product you maintain with X2Go.Everybody understands
and most of the administrating members prefer mailing lists over clumsy web forums- but may I suggest: this eats up a lot of ressources.
If you created an X2Go Forum you could potentially build up a wider user
base. They can then help each other, which makes them happy (and potentially also takes some work from the mailing lists). This again helps a growing user base and vice versa. Potentially a wider user base and more publicity helps you gain more sponsors and donations. And so on.
Well, that is all possible with the mailing list, too. We also have an IRC chat which can be used for quick questions.
Further Devs may get further ideas from users, as most users find forums easier to handle than a mailing list.
Unfortunately we have more ideas than resources...
I strongly believe this could be an overall win-win.
Alternatively, I could offer myself to consider building an (inofficial) forum. I will need help with some admins/moderators though and I will need time, but I like to support good products.
Let me know what you think.
Thank you for the offer. However: As you have seen in the past traffic on this mailing list is quite low with not many people answering questions. This would not change with a forum. I suppose we would not drop the mailing list so we'd have both which would even _increase_ the required time for doing support stuff. So thank you again, but I do not see the benefit.
If you want to get involved in the x2go community (everybody can, so spread the word!) there are tasks that need to be done:
- update/revise the wiki,
- clean up the bug tracker (there's a lot of spam and many old bugs)
- move the bug tracker to something modern
- probably more (Stefan?)
Uli
Hi Alexanderstr,
On So 20 Okt 2019 22:01:33 CEST, Alexanderstr Miete wrote:
You wrote: Well, that is all possible with the mailing list, too. We also have an IRC chat which can be used for quick questions.
Not all is possible with this mailing list. Especially users cannot browse for previous issues which may have been solved in the last 10+ years. Also I cannot search for keywords to see if another user may have encountered or solved similar issue I face. Thats a great downside. Also its very difficult for new users to become friends with X2Go, as a forum is much more approachable, "visual" and "friendly" than a mailing list, which feels a bit "exclusive". This alienates potential X2Go users; at least it did this with me at the beginning.
Its your call in the end, you are the devs. If you are opposed there is no point. But please consider it, for X2Go's sake; its a great product and I wish it was spreading fast. Sometimes if there was not the right time in the past the right time comes later. Counterquestion: Why don't you just move this mailing list to a Forum Platform. Then you have the same interaction with the missing benefits.
The archiving software (Pipermail) of the mailing list software that
the X2Go project uses (i.e. Mailman2) is pretty poor indeed.
We need to migrate the mailing lists from Mailman2 to Mailman3 (or
something completely different) in the more or less near future (as
Mailman2 is Python2-based and Python2 is end-of-life after 31 Dec 2019).
In Mailman3's archiving component (Hyperkitty), all the above
forum-like functionalities are core features (key word search, recent
posts, also writing posts IIRC, etc.). However, all past posts will be
immutable (which is a wanted / must-have feature for an X2Go
archive/forum/what-not).
The disadvantages of forums in Free Software project management comes
in for developers / contributors / power users that participate in too
many projects already. If communication can be stripped down to
emailing, then one can manage all communication in one's email client.
If each project runs its own forum, then one has to access one forum
per project and check for new posts there. That does not scale well
(at least not for me).
If you know of a forum software that can be transparently communicated
over via email-only, please let us know. Also, please let us know
about a potential migration plan for that forum software (transferring
all past postings from Mailman2 into the forum).
Adding some extra service to the X2Go project will not provide any
gain and will end up in non-skilled people recommending non-good
practices to other non-skilled people, if the group of developers is
not convinced of the new forum platform. Not a good idea to introduce
this as Stefan pointed out already.
Replacing our mailing lists with another mailing list software that
provides a forum postings feature and a good archive viewer / search
engine is something we all should be interested in.
More then setting up such a piece of software, it needs people to
maintain that on a long-term basis. If you are ready to provide that
contribution to the project, let's continue this discussion.
Otherwise, well...
;-)
light+love Mike
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Alexanderstr Miete -
Mike Gabriel -
Stefan Baur -
Ulrich Sibiller